Waving the white flag

[Graham Stovold]

It is interesting that Shahid is being hung out to dry with his hopes of returning to the EFL within 5 years, ground development etc. Who remembers Terry Owens 10 year plan to return the the EFL? The programmes had a dartboard with the bullseye being this moment. I know for a fact many teams showed this to their players before a game and said things like "billy big b****cks today and lets show them how hard these leagues are", used to motivate their players. Under Terry's ship steering we gradually slowed our progression upwards. Do not remember Terry getting so much stick for his ambitions.

Just saying like.

But under Terry we were making progress. It was slower than we'd have liked and admittedly, we got a bit stuck under Wigley (and Borg towards the end), but we were on the up and it felt like it. We're at a tougher level now but the general consensus is that isn't happening here. Lots of facts back it up too.

I've said a couple of times now that I admire you doubling down on your commitment to Shahid and not having a bad word said about what he's doing. He's your mate, I get it, but it doesn't mean others have to see it the same as you. You're in a minority on a debate when most people are clearly seeing it another way. You're very brave to keep calling it out in the face of what's happening right now - especially on the pitch - but it's kind of denying the obvious. I remember a couple of years ago you rightly said something similar to 'clubs getting it right on the pitch, have very little wrong off it....' or something along those lines. Basically, people don't moan when we're winning. You were spot on and there was very little of this knocking about 12 months ago. Surely the current disgruntlement naturally comes when you're unsuccessful? I enjoy your views generally (about the football anyway!), but I just can't see why a spade isn't a spade on this one.

Shotsweb posters are the minority of shots fan’s whichever way you look at it, no one can say for certain what all fans views are if the majority of them don’t have a view on it.

[MikeB]

It is interesting that Shahid is being hung out to dry with his hopes of returning to the EFL within 5 years, ground development etc. Who remembers Terry Owens 10 year plan to return the the EFL? The programmes had a dartboard with the bullseye being this moment. I know for a fact many teams showed this to their players before a game and said things like "billy big b****cks today and lets show them how hard these leagues are", used to motivate their players. Under Terry's ship steering we gradually slowed our progression upwards. Do not remember Terry getting so much stick for his ambitions.

Just saying like.

But under Terry we were making progress. It was slower than we'd have liked and admittedly, we got a bit stuck under Wigley (and Borg towards the end), but we were on the up and it felt like it. We're at a tougher level now but the general consensus is that isn't happening here. Lots of facts back it up too.

I've said a couple of times now that I admire you doubling down on your commitment to Shahid and not having a bad word said about what he's doing. He's your mate, I get it, but it doesn't mean others have to see it the same as you. You're in a minority on a debate when most people are clearly seeing it another way. You're very brave to keep calling it out in the face of what's happening right now - especially on the pitch - but it's kind of denying the obvious. I remember a couple of years ago you rightly said something similar to 'clubs getting it right on the pitch, have very little wrong off it....' or something along those lines. Basically, people don't moan when we're winning. You were spot on and there was very little of this knocking about 12 months ago. Surely the current disgruntlement naturally comes when you're unsuccessful? I enjoy your views generally (about the football anyway!), but I just can't see why a spade isn't a spade on this one.

Shotsweb posters are the minority of shots fan’s whichever way you look at it, no one can say for certain what all fans views are if the majority of them don’t have a view on it.

I think this is a valid point. Not just a minority but probably an unrepresentative minority in terms of average age, years of support, distance from Aldershot, etc. When I have dipped in, other social media platforms seem to have more of the "Trust in Tommy" stuff, at least for now.

[Harlow Massive]

I fail to understand just why our fans cannot understand that we are where we are. Yes frustrating but no point angering your heart and stress it out.

Here, here, well said Dr Jim.

All this frothing at the mouth
And Impatient wailing.
Not good for the heart.
Or peace of mind.
Sit back.
Allow the manager to do what he thinks best.
Trust to patience and realism as the best way ahead.
For a club with our limited resources.
Thus let him build, test, make mistakes.
Find a path to relative success.
In harmony with the club's resources.
And when he becomes that good.
He'll leave to join the higher ups.
Reality.
Enjoy the good while you can.
In gratitude.
Here endeth the lesson.

Yawn, it's all in fairyland.........

[Old Bob]

It is interesting that Shahid is being hung out to dry with his hopes of returning to the EFL within 5 years, ground development etc. Who remembers Terry Owens 10 year plan to return the the EFL? The programmes had a dartboard with the bullseye being this moment. I know for a fact many teams showed this to their players before a game and said things like "billy big b****cks today and lets show them how hard these leagues are", used to motivate their players. Under Terry's ship steering we gradually slowed our progression upwards. Do not remember Terry getting so much stick for his ambitions.

Just saying like.

But under Terry we were making progress. It was slower than we'd have liked and admittedly, we got a bit stuck under Wigley (and Borg towards the end), but we were on the up and it felt like it. We're at a tougher level now but the general consensus is that isn't happening here. Lots of facts back it up too.

I've said a couple of times now that I admire you doubling down on your commitment to Shahid and not having a bad word said about what he's doing. He's your mate, I get it, but it doesn't mean others have to see it the same as you. You're in a minority on a debate when most people are clearly seeing it another way. You're very brave to keep calling it out in the face of what's happening right now - especially on the pitch - but it's kind of denying the obvious. I remember a couple of years ago you rightly said something similar to 'clubs getting it right on the pitch, have very little wrong off it....' or something along those lines. Basically, people don't moan when we're winning. You were spot on and there was very little of this knocking about 12 months ago. Surely the current disgruntlement naturally comes when you're unsuccessful? I enjoy your views generally (about the football anyway!), but I just can't see why a spade isn't a spade on this one.

Shotsweb posters are the minority of shots fan’s whichever way you look at it, no one can say for certain what all fans views are if the majority of them don’t have a view on it.

Seems to me this is the old "silent majority" argument. As you say, we cannot be certain what all fans views are.

As a general rule, I am unimpressed with silent majority arguments. They usually make the implicit (and unwarranted) assumption that the vocal minority is wrong and the silent majority necessarily agrees with the arguer but just hasn't bothered to say so. In effect, it's a logical sleight-of-hand, an attempt to win an argument without any visible support. This is certainly the way that Richard Nixon deployed it in his infamous speech.

Don't get me wrong, Graham. I am not having a dig at you. In particular, I think you are right that Shotsweb posters are possibly atypical of all Shots fans. But arguably, they are among the more committed and regular fans and therefore are more likely to be among the more informed followers of the club. So their views deserve to be taken seriously.

[Cph.shots]

But under Terry we were making progress. It was slower than we'd have liked and admittedly, we got a bit stuck under Wigley (and Borg towards the end), but we were on the up and it felt like it. We're at a tougher level now but the general consensus is that isn't happening here. Lots of facts back it up too.

I've said a couple of times now that I admire you doubling down on your commitment to Shahid and not having a bad word said about what he's doing. He's your mate, I get it, but it doesn't mean others have to see it the same as you. You're in a minority on a debate when most people are clearly seeing it another way. You're very brave to keep calling it out in the face of what's happening right now - especially on the pitch - but it's kind of denying the obvious. I remember a couple of years ago you rightly said something similar to 'clubs getting it right on the pitch, have very little wrong off it....' or something along those lines. Basically, people don't moan when we're winning. You were spot on and there was very little of this knocking about 12 months ago. Surely the current disgruntlement naturally comes when you're unsuccessful? I enjoy your views generally (about the football anyway!), but I just can't see why a spade isn't a spade on this one.

Shotsweb posters are the minority of shots fan’s whichever way you look at it, no one can say for certain what all fans views are if the majority of them don’t have a view on it.

I think this is a valid point. Not just a minority but probably an unrepresentative minority in terms of average age, years of support, distance from Aldershot, etc. When I have dipped in, other social media platforms seem to have more of the "Trust in Tommy" stuff, at least for now.

I don't do a lot of the other social media places but see a few posts on FB and they make SW look a very calm and reasonable place.
The posts that I've noticed seem fairly equally split between anti Shahid and anti Tommy. I get the impression it's a fairly noisey minority but that's only my take on it.

[Cph.shots]

It is interesting that Shahid is being hung out to dry with his hopes of returning to the EFL within 5 years, ground development etc. Who remembers Terry Owens 10 year plan to return the the EFL? The programmes had a dartboard with the bullseye being this moment. I know for a fact many teams showed this to their players before a game and said things like "billy big b****cks today and lets show them how hard these leagues are", used to motivate their players. Under Terry's ship steering we gradually slowed our progression upwards. Do not remember Terry getting so much stick for his ambitions.

Just saying like.

But under Terry we were making progress. It was slower than we'd have liked and admittedly, we got a bit stuck under Wigley (and Borg towards the end), but we were on the up and it felt like it. We're at a tougher level now but the general consensus is that isn't happening here. Lots of facts back it up too.

I've said a couple of times now that I admire you doubling down on your commitment to Shahid and not having a bad word said about what he's doing. He's your mate, I get it, but it doesn't mean others have to see it the same as you. You're in a minority on a debate when most people are clearly seeing it another way. You're very brave to keep calling it out in the face of what's happening right now - especially on the pitch - but it's kind of denying the obvious. I remember a couple of years ago you rightly said something similar to 'clubs getting it right on the pitch, have very little wrong off it....' or something along those lines. Basically, people don't moan when we're winning. You were spot on and there was very little of this knocking about 12 months ago. Surely the current disgruntlement naturally comes when you're unsuccessful? I enjoy your views generally (about the football anyway!), but I just can't see why a spade isn't a spade on this one.

I don't think JR and Shahid are "mates", they've spoken a few times because JR has asked for a meeting.
I also don't accept that JR is in a minority, he's just being realistic.
If Shahid was stubbornly holding on to power and fighting off other investors I'd also want him to go but as far as I remember he isn't even the majority shareholder so presumably can only be ousted by the other board members or an outside investor buying up a majority of the shares.
He could of course just walk away but is there anyone else on the board willing to take over the post of chairman?
Last season a lot of us were enjoying a relatively successful season, seeing some very talented players and some even praising the BOD (not necessarily SA) for appointing Tommy. Now it seems a lot of people think it's SA's fault alone that things are going so badly.

[Dr Jim Royle]

I don't think JR and Shahid are "mates", they've spoken a few times because JR has asked for a meeting.
I also don't accept that JR is in a minority, he's just being realistic.
If Shahid was stubbornly holding on to power and fighting off other investors I'd also want him to go but as far as I remember he isn't even the majority shareholder so presumably can only be ousted by the other board members or an outside investor buying up a majority of the shares.
He could of course just walk away but is there anyone else on the board willing to take over the post of chairman?
Last season a lot of us were enjoying a relatively successful season, seeing some very talented players and some even praising the BOD (not necessarily SA) for appointing Tommy. Now it seems a lot of people think it's SA's fault alone that things are going so badly.

Just a few points regarding my view. We did not just slow down progression under Terry, we came to a almost standstill. Not Terrys fault but under his guidance we got as far as we could at the time. And the same can be said of the Chairmen since, and that is where we are at now, only nobody ready to take current Chairmans place. I do not think we have any "bad" Chairmen since our 1992 rise, just exhausted the ones who did a stout job in their reign.

And now the BOMB dropping. There are posters now on ShotsWeb that are just so far up their own ***, it is only their opinion that matters or is right. Anybody that dares to rock that on here with an alternative view is wrong and will not be taken seriously, sometimes keyboard bullied even. In my opinion those Posters either need to actually take stock, berating players, managers and Board Members constantly is tiresome, if they have such strong "opinions" take them directly to the faces they seek to belittle, not keep posting on here hiding away, it is cowardness IMHO. Yes, I once had some issues with the Club at one time, talking and LISTENING directly to those folk we found common ground and respect both ways. So if you are one of those posters I mention, try it ...... THEN come on here and share your experience.

[ShotOnTarget]

I don't think JR and Shahid are "mates", they've spoken a few times because JR has asked for a meeting.
I also don't accept that JR is in a minority, he's just being realistic.
If Shahid was stubbornly holding on to power and fighting off other investors I'd also want him to go but as far as I remember he isn't even the majority shareholder so presumably can only be ousted by the other board members or an outside investor buying up a majority of the shares.
He could of course just walk away but is there anyone else on the board willing to take over the post of chairman?
Last season a lot of us were enjoying a relatively successful season, seeing some very talented players and some even praising the BOD (not necessarily SA) for appointing Tommy. Now it seems a lot of people think it's SA's fault alone that things are going so badly.

Just a few points regarding my view. We did not just slow down progression under Terry, we came to a almost standstill. Not Terrys fault but under his guidance we got as far as we could at the time. And the same can be said of the Chairmen since, and that is where we are at now, only nobody ready to take current Chairmans place. I do not think we have any "bad" Chairmen since our 1992 rise, just exhausted the ones who did a stout job in their reign.

And now the BOMB dropping. There are posters now on ShotsWeb that are just so far up their own ***, it is only their opinion that matters or is right. Anybody that dares to rock that on here with an alternative view is wrong and will not be taken seriously, sometimes keyboard bullied even. In my opinion those Posters either need to actually take stock, berating players, managers and Board Members constantly is tiresome, if they have such strong "opinions" take them directly to the faces they seek to belittle, not keep posting on here hiding away, it is cowardness IMHO. Yes, I once had some issues with the Club at one time, talking and LISTENING directly to those folk we found common ground and respect both ways. So if you are one of those posters I mention, try it ...... THEN come on here and share your experience.

Although some years ago, I was a volunteer and actively involved with the Trust and thus had occasion to talk with a number of senior people. Some were rude. Some were ignorant. Some were thick. Some were up there own @rse. Several of them ticked all the boxes. Others were solid people.

[Josh]

Kris Machala was a terrible chairman

[Turnkey]

Kris Machala was a terrible chairman

But he was as lovely bloke who was horrendously manipulated by an absolute arsehole of a CEO and a devious c*** of a manager. I would ask, since he’s now passed and unable to defend himself, there is no bad mouthing of him, he did his best and was rinsed by those two. I count him very much as a friend and I have no doubt what happened at the club contributed to his early demise.

[Fuggletim]

Kris Machala wasn’t a friend of mine, but I mean that in the context of never having met him personally as opposed to anything negative. However I was never quite sure how he took the chair to be honest, but was KM the chairman when the controversial decision was made to alter the club’s constitution to allow someone to own more than a 20% shareholding? As a shareholder, I could see danger ahead and voted against the move.

Towards end of the season before we got relegated to the Conference, alleged comment was made by KM (and picked up on the local radio I recall) that the club had “financial issues” but nothing more was elaborated upon, until the club was relegated the following season and it became obvious. I don’t recall this information being made known in any depth to shareholders prior to the relegation.

I lost my entire shareholding for the second time (I also had shares in AFC 1926) when the new company took over ATFC 1992. On this basis, I could never say KM was a good chairman, although it does appear there was a “backstory”, but in most things in life there are.

[Richard Petty]

Kris Machala wasn’t a friend of mine, but I mean that in the context of never having met him personally as opposed to anything negative. However I was never quite sure how he took the chair to be honest, but was KM the chairman when the controversial decision was made to alter the club’s constitution to allow someone to own more than a 20% shareholding? As a shareholder, I could see danger ahead and voted against the move.

Towards end of the season before we got relegated to the Conference, alleged comment was made by KM (and picked up on the local radio I recall) that the club had “financial issues” but nothing more was elaborated upon, until the club was relegated the following season and it became obvious. I don’t recall this information being made known in any depth to shareholders prior to the relegation.

I lost my entire shareholding for the second time (I also had shares in AFC 1926) when the new company took over ATFC 1992. On this basis, I could never say KM was a good chairman, although it does appear there was a “backstory”, but in most things in life there are.

The change to the shareholding constitution was while John McGinty was chairman. It was pushed for by Paul Foy who was trying at that time to attract a big investor, who in the end never materialised.

There was actually a fair bit of sharing of the financial issues shared with shareholders towards the end of the final season in the EFL including the new preferential share issue vote that KM actualltvoted against on the night to the shock and horror of everyone there. Had he voted for that as he had said he would then there would have been no need for the administration that followed. Someone (don't know who but he would only say outside the club) got into his ear and persuaded him he could still turn things round which of course he couldn't.

If you don't recall that period then may I recommend reading Graham Brooklands book which gives a lot more detail and describes how he (Graham) put a lot of effort into trying to get that vote over the line.

All very frustrating at the time

[Fuggletim]

Thanks Richard for the clarification. The 20% constitution change was longer ago than I thought, but it did prove dangerous and I certainly voted against it, albeit with the knowledge that probably more would vote in favour for the perceived benefits longer term.

As I said, there was some, but not as I interpreted it, “in depth” information shared, but it was insufficient to be perceived as serious as it turned out. As you allude, things could have worked out differently, had KM voted the way it was predicted he would, but unfortunately he didn’t

Shares wise, I was proud to own a part of both AFC 1926 and ATFC 1992, and never intended or wanted to make a financial gain. I bought the shares and subsequently increased my shareholding because I wanted to own a part of something I loved.

However, I don’t think I would be tempted to invest again in the club, other than coming along to watch (National League Cup most especially excepted).

[Rba]

I don't think JR and Shahid are "mates", they've spoken a few times because JR has asked for a meeting.
I also don't accept that JR is in a minority, he's just being realistic.
If Shahid was stubbornly holding on to power and fighting off other investors I'd also want him to go but as far as I remember he isn't even the majority shareholder so presumably can only be ousted by the other board members or an outside investor buying up a majority of the shares.
He could of course just walk away but is there anyone else on the board willing to take over the post of chairman?
Last season a lot of us were enjoying a relatively successful season, seeing some very talented players and some even praising the BOD (not necessarily SA) for appointing Tommy. Now it seems a lot of people think it's SA's fault alone that things are going so badly.

Just a few points regarding my view. We did not just slow down progression under Terry, we came to a almost standstill. Not Terrys fault but under his guidance we got as far as we could at the time. And the same can be said of the Chairmen since, and that is where we are at now, only nobody ready to take current Chairmans place. I do not think we have any "bad" Chairmen since our 1992 rise, just exhausted the ones who did a stout job in their reign.

And now the BOMB dropping. There are posters now on ShotsWeb that are just so far up their own ***, it is only their opinion that matters or is right. Anybody that dares to rock that on here with an alternative view is wrong and will not be taken seriously, sometimes keyboard bullied even. In my opinion those Posters either need to actually take stock, berating players, managers and Board Members constantly is tiresome, if they have such strong "opinions" take them directly to the faces they seek to belittle, not keep posting on here hiding away, it is cowardness IMHO. Yes, I once had some issues with the Club at one time, talking and LISTENING directly to those folk we found common ground and respect both ways. So if you are one of those posters I mention, try it ...... THEN come on here and share your experience.

The first three lines in the bottom paragraph you were spot on.....

[Richard Petty]

I don't think JR and Shahid are "mates", they've spoken a few times because JR has asked for a meeting.
I also don't accept that JR is in a minority, he's just being realistic.
If Shahid was stubbornly holding on to power and fighting off other investors I'd also want him to go but as far as I remember he isn't even the majority shareholder so presumably can only be ousted by the other board members or an outside investor buying up a majority of the shares.
He could of course just walk away but is there anyone else on the board willing to take over the post of chairman?
Last season a lot of us were enjoying a relatively successful season, seeing some very talented players and some even praising the BOD (not necessarily SA) for appointing Tommy. Now it seems a lot of people think it's SA's fault alone that things are going so badly.

Just a few points regarding my view. We did not just slow down progression under Terry, we came to a almost standstill. Not Terrys fault but under his guidance we got as far as we could at the time. And the same can be said of the Chairmen since, and that is where we are at now, only nobody ready to take current Chairmans place. I do not think we have any "bad" Chairmen since our 1992 rise, just exhausted the ones who did a stout job in their reign.

And now the BOMB dropping. There are posters now on ShotsWeb that are just so far up their own ***, it is only their opinion that matters or is right. Anybody that dares to rock that on here with an alternative view is wrong and will not be taken seriously, sometimes keyboard bullied even. In my opinion those Posters either need to actually take stock, berating players, managers and Board Members constantly is tiresome, if they have such strong "opinions" take them directly to the faces they seek to belittle, not keep posting on here hiding away, it is cowardness IMHO. Yes, I once had some issues with the Club at one time, talking and LISTENING directly to those folk we found common ground and respect both ways. So if you are one of those posters I mention, try it ...... THEN come on here and share your experience.

The first three lines in the bottom paragraph you were spot on.....

Your right but It's not just Shotsweb it's most social media platforms and to a certain degree (though not so much) life in general. Anyone who tries to say "actually there might be two sides to this" like Dr Royle here often tries to do just gets shot down by those who have their views and nothing will change their mind.